Knowing what to work on in the practice room can be confusing. How do you know if you are focusing on the right aspects of your voice?

In this first of a two-part interview, John is joined by Chris Johnson (of the fantastic Naked Vocalist podcast) to discuss how to analyze the voice and discover where you should focus your efforts.


Chris Johnson Website

Chris Johnson Facebook

Naked Vocalist

Episode Transcript

Episode 85 – Knowing What to Work On, Part 1

John: Hey there, this is John Henny. Welcome back to another edition of The Intelligent Vocalist. I do so appreciate you spending your precious time with me. All right, episode 85. So I’ve decided to celebrate episode 85 because no one ever celebrates 85. It’s always 50 or a hundred. So we’re going to celebrate episode 85 by doing a couple of things. First, I’m going to start releasing two podcasts a week. Yep. The podcast has been getting more and more popular. Had growth of over 25%, this past month. So something’s catching on here. It’s pretty exciting. So I’m going to see if people are up for me two times a week. So my plan is to release on Tuesdays and Fridays and if it seems like people like it, I will continue to do it. If it just turns into kind of overwhelm. And a chore for people to keep listening and the numbers drop, then I’ll have to reconsider.

But, I’m going to also make things a bit more interesting, which comes to the number two way to celebrate. I have my first guest. Gonna start bringing guests on here and there. Rather than just having it be me, I’m going to do a back and forth. So they talk about, in the podcast industry, if you will, there’s the Robinson Caruso type of podcast, which I have been doing, just me on my lonesome little desert island. And then there’s the Oprah style where you interview people. Now, I can’t give everyone in the audience a free car, but I can come up with some interesting questions. So in that sense, I can kind of be Oprah, except for the billions of dollars and worldwide audience. And, I am very excited to have as my first guest. I actually really am excited, Chris Johnson. Chris and I go back a long ways.

We touch a bit on that in the interview, but I find Chris to just be an amazingly smart and gifted voice teacher who’s always finding new ways of doing things without any conceit or attitude. And he has a beautiful way of making complex things simple. And that’s something I really, really appreciate, to me, is the sign of a great educator, to take complex ideas and make them easier to understand. Now, in doing my first interview, you would think that I would hedge my bets and take it easy on the technology. But of course, no, I decided to try and do a Facebook live, on my computer with new software at the same time as I was talking to Chris, and suddenly I couldn’t get audio on him in the Facebook live. It was a bit of a mess. So I’ve managed to salvage the podcast out of it.

Luckily enough, Chris was recording on his end, which is actually better. His audio is nice and crisp and clear. You can still hear me. It’s just not as clear as Chris. But that’s when you’re doing these long distance podcasts, that’s something you do give up, a little bit of the audio quality. Chris being in the UK he teaches in London and what we discussed in the show notes to reach out to Chris and to find out information. It will be in the show notes at So you can go there and I will put the links in the show notes. So without further ado, I present my first guest, Chris Johnson. So Chris, welcome. Thank you for coming on.

Chris: Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate the invite.

John: It’s great to talk to you. I know. We go back a ways.

Chris: There’s a couple of people who are literally, as you would read in some of those books about, people who have done really great things in their lifetime. You need somebody who ignites the fire, who starts it off for you. And you’re certainly one of those people for me, right at the start of my teaching career. That was 12 years ago or something like that. So it’s been a while. I’ve got a few photos with you, mate.

John: I remember meeting you and, Steve Giles, who’s your cohost on The Naked Vocalist podcast, which everyone needs to listen to. You guys do a great job, but I remember just being really impressed with both of you, and now you’ve both become like smarter about this stuff than me, which just pisses me off.

Chris: I mean I’m pretty smart. I am. These days were great. And then what you did, you came down to Southampton. And you, which were the really the good old days with the teachers down there where we used to just sit in that hot studio. Gareth’s hot, muggy studio. What am I saying to you when it’s like on Labor Day, your Facebook status on Labor Day is like I’m melting. But yeah, so sitting in that muggy room, but the beauty of it was we did that a lot with a lot of teachers and ourselves, but sort of sitting on all those sofas, somebody on the piano and excited actually in front of the piano and then just running lesson after lesson with discoveries and all kinds of stuff.

And that was, not a lot of teachers I think get to experience that. It’s very much nice to have. I’m super thankful for those times when we did that. And obviously there was a time when you were with us for like, I think two or three days or something. That was my first experience of observing a teacher and then taking that information away and going, alright, how am I going to do this? Like, I’m going to do everything John did and then it wouldn’t be as good. And I’m like, Hey, listen, I’m using all the same stuff. What’s going on? Then you start to realize it’s not about the exercise, it’s about how you communicate. And that’s what I think back to the time when we first met each other and I was observing what you were using. You were using a very narrow set of tools, but getting these wonderful results. I take those tools away. Terrible results.

John: One of the things I’d like to just chat with you briefly about, but I think, I’ve had people ask about this and I think it’s rather fascinating is, as you’ve moved from Southampton, then you were in London for awhile, obviously very competitive market, and now you’ve moved to Brighton.

Chris: Yeah. I still teach in London though.

John: Okay. But you’ve had to reestablish yourself in it. So do you teach in Brighton?

Chris: A little bit, but do you know what the establishment or this– not the establishment, I don’t want to get into the establishment, not this time of the century– I established myself, actually ended up establishing this online. So it was almost like Salisbury, which is a tiny little town near Stonehenge. It was establishing there, then Southampton, then London, which was actually a very scary move. And then after that it was like, I do a little bit in Brighton, but I actually ended up establishing myself online anyway internationally. So they’ve been the kind of, the worlds where I’ve had to breach into different environments.

John: So my question to you is, what do you feel when you decide to establish yourself in a new area? What is it that you do? What has been really helpful for you to create that authority and establish yourself and rise above all of the noise?

Chris: Yeah. Well, I can’t lie. Part of it is playing the Google game. Because when you do your keyword research, if anyone starts to yawn right now, just tune out. But keyword research is very valuable because what you do is you end up figuring out obviously what people are typing into Google and where they’re typing it from and all that stuff. So you do that and then you realize– then you look on Google, you’d search those terms and you see the quality of the websites that are competing for that. And you realize, no offense to you guys, but your websites are absolutely diabolical. I just have to invest not even three, 400 pounds in an average design, with a video that portrays my personality and I’ve already trumped everyone in like 12 months, right?

And that’s not that– I could be terrible at my job, right? But I have got you in the door. But fortunately I’d like to think that because people stick around, I’m reasonably good at my job. So retention is not that hard really. Even when you’re expensive because what you do is that people see your value and they want to invest in it. So if it’s difficult to get those people through the door with that initial thing, then that’s tricky. But then obviously give it 12 months of Google searches, then it becomes very much more about recommendation because now you’re known. Another part of it that I think is important is singing teachers, singing coaching is very insular, it’s very lonely and it’s actually a little bit insidious with the competitiveness at times, needlessly, because there’s plenty for everyone.

That means that the integration of teachers actually get stuck. I feel like teachers don’t integrate until they feel secure enough to go, you’re not going to steal my clients. Actually I’m not worried. Even if you do try cause that actually, every success I’ve made in my life has been down to somebody else. But if I’m easy to work with and I can do a good job, obviously people will recommend me, not just students, but professional people will recommend me. Again, massive to being successful in a new area. You integrate to the professional community as well as the one you’re serving.

John: I think you make a great point that the first being when you’re coming into a new area and to establish yourself, voice teachers, we seem to have this aversion for self-promotion or certainly advertising. And there’s kind of this belief of, voice teachers will brag, I don’t advertise. And I always respond, well then you’ve been in the same location a very long time. Nobody has moved to a new area and a month later is bragging they don’t advertise and they have a full studio.

Chris: No. There’s a backstory there in terms of an, I’ve worked at the same institution. And then every cohort has left that, but 20% of them have stayed working with me for the next five years. Like, I mean, that’s happened to me as well. So there is a backstory there, so yeah, you’re right. You wouldn’t certainly see that from your new age teacher. Not often anyway,

John: But what that does is it creates an environment, like you said, where the websites are poor, the advertising is nonexistent or it’s not done with the potential customer in mind. We’ll move on to today’s topic, but voice teachers, if I could just give you one tip and I believe that Chris would agree is that mistake I see is on the website. The teacher makes it about themselves, who they’ve taught, where they’ve studied, maybe, what institutions they’ve gone, degrees they’ve got, et cetera, very little to nothing about how they can solve a singer’s problem.

Chris: Yeah. They don’t speak to that person who’s in that pickle. Some people don’t know who you’re talking about, like they’re like Royal Academy. In the UK, if it’s Royal, obviously people go, Oh, cool. Or they might go, hmm, a bit traditional, right? Rather than, you speak to– cause that, also saying where you’ve gone is almost a pigeon hole, rather than, it doesn’t matter where I’ve gone, I can help you. And you like classical and contemporary or I could, you know, it doesn’t matter because the skills are related to your voice. So, yeah, it’s a strange market and world out there and it doesn’t make it difficult actually for someone breaking into the market. And that’s why I’m quite encouraging of the teachers I trained to just say, look, get some video content on. Get people to trust you. Yeah. Speak to them, not your peers. And then you’re going to be rocking.

John: And for the singers who listen to the podcast, it’s helpful for them. If you have a particular issue that you feel that you want me to solve, a bit of investigation, if you find a voice teacher who really speaks to that issue, that may be the person to try.

Chris: 100%

John: Yup, absolutely. So today’s theme is how to know what to work on. And I kind of come at this because I read this book called The One Thing, and it’s this great book about finding something, the one thing that you need– should be working on to get to meet your goal. But then that becomes like putting the proverbial bell on the cat. How do I find that one thing? And I find in today’s information society that it’s the glut of information that really paralyzes singers, and what is it, paralysis by analysis. They just get stuck. They don’t know what to work on. And so for the average singer, how do you help them work through the clutter and just get clear on just focusing on one thing rather than flitting around to 20 different others?

Chris: Yeah. What you said about the information overload there is massive, because actually, almost every exercise you read has value applied in the right way to the right situation. Which is why reading an arbitrary exercise to say, do that every day and your voice will change, it’s such a load of rubbish because every exercise has that kind of worth. Not really. Maybe like straw seems to do something so intrinsic, it changes things. So intrinsically, that’s almost like a part exception to this rule, but it doesn’t teach you anything about how to sing. It just changes things so dramatically that you just kind of go, Oh, I’m going to do it every day there. Right. So don’t get me wrong, I love the straw. I think it’s wicked. But so you have all of these exercises. And so what I tend to do with the singers that I see, and admittedly my sort of view of this situation is related to the people that I work with, right?

And I work with people who are like, my voice is a pain in the ass. It’s not doing what I need it to do or I’m crashing and burning in my professional career. Right? So they’re like, that’s like 90% of my day. So I’m driven to that goal of trying to get that singer to resolve that problem as quickly as possible and as permanently as possible. We know patchwork, right? So that’s my bias on that side of things. So what I tend to do with those singers is I tend to walk them through a bunch of diagnostic principles, which are to show them how their voice functions on certain levels. For instance, breathing would be one of them. People can pick this up. It’s used in speech therapy. It’s the S to Zed ratio, for example. 

John: And for us American listeners, Zed is not the name of a space alien. It’s the letter Z. 

Chris: And I’m singing with these American toys to my daughter and it’s like X, Y, Z. And I have to learn how to that cause I keep saying Zed, um Z. What am I saying? I even forget which order the letters are in occasionally. What? I’m saying to myself, what am I doing? I live in language, right?

John: My father was from Glasgow and he was here in the States and he was complaining to someone about they didn’t fix the fridge properly and my dad’s just giving off in his thick Glaswegian accent and the guy goes, why don’t you learn to speak English? [impersonating his father] “Who do you think invented the bloody language?” Yeah. English comes from England.

Chris: And I’m Scottish, so off. So this S to Z ratio, right, cause a lot of people are like, well, I need to work on my breathing. You know what it’s like, I need to work on my breathing. Sometimes you do, right? Fair enough. But what you tend to do like, and there was like, I’ve run out of breath, I just don’t think I can get enough in me. And what you get is you do the hiss, and the hiss is one of those exercises that is prescribed with no purpose, right? So people do it and they’re like, A. I don’t know what I’m doing so I don’t buy into it. B. I honestly cannot see how this is going to change anything, right? But in context of a Zed, it actually makes a lot of sense, right? Which is why the singer can have a revelation. What we do is we do this big hiss, the hiss will last– I’ve had somebody go nearly two minutes. I’m like, Hey, are you a pearl diver? What the heck is this? But they’ll have a very long hiss and I’m like, I don’t put any ideas in their head straight away. I’m like, okay, what we’re going to do is once they’ve recovered, let’s have a cup of tea. and then we’ll do this.

Yeah and so we’ll do a Zed instead, and obviously it’s guided to be pretty quiet. Right and what that does is it kind of puts a new challenge on that. So it’s the same amount of lung volume. It’s the same like enormous breath in and like the hiss, it’s very much trying to control that outflow to keep an even sound. So first one, his next one was a Z. And then what you get is a hiss that lasts a minute or 45 seconds. You add a bit of voice to it, it goes down to 15 seconds. They’re like, I started putting the ideas in their head like you can hiss for 45 seconds. Now how do you think it’s possible that we are running out of breath on a five second phrase? And then we start talking about it and then I’m like, look, we put voice in the way and I let them know like the vocal folds kind of resist the air.

They regulate what comes through to a massive degree. So in that sense then if we put them in the way and we get like half your time, then what we’re seeing is not rather a breathing issue but actually how breath and voice are in synergy. And that voice might be tight or injured even, or inflamed or just untrained and they need so much pressure to phonate and then they leak some as well. So you get like this kind of sound, that you see actually the inefficiency is when it meets the vocal folds. It’s not your breathing per se. It’s actually the breath interacting with the vocal folds, in which case, that singer can go, all right, I’ll put all those breathing exercises down from the internet. And what I might do is actually look at vocal folds coming together and how that interacts with breath.

John: Well, so you’re talking about using this hiss versus Zed as a diagnostic.

Chris: Yes, absolutely. And that allows that singer to go, what do I work on? I know the symptom. I’ve run out of breath. So I look at the exact correlative place where that comes from, which is my lungs or my breathing system. And I just basically go, well that makes perfect sense. But they do loads of exercises and nothing changes. Now if you were to get a hiss that’s like 20 seconds, that is a short time for a hiss really. And then what you get is a Zed that lasts the same amount of time. And then what you can say is actually, with the air that you have, those vocal folds are being efficient with it. They are, it’s the same time, they’re not leaking anymore air. They’re not inefficient. Otherwise that time would be half or whatever. It would be a much lower ratio.

John: And you do this on just a comfortable pitch?

Chris: Yeah. Somewhere– if it’s too low, I find that it’s too slack if it’s too low. So it’s somewhere, like for guys, I reckon you could probably do it somewhere around about F or G. And for females, maybe somewhere around like C or D, or B or C.

John: Okay. And this is for guys, it’s the F or G below middle C? Middle C for women, C or D?

Chris: Yeah. Middle C for women, about there. No higher cause we start challenging the registers and stuff. Right. So we get that situation and then we’re like, right. So then I would go look, your breathing hiss is the same as your Zed, which that means the sound that’s being created from that air is actually quite efficient. Now that time, to put it in context, 20 seconds is relatively short. It’s quite a low lung volume. Now then I’m like, okay, look back at those breathing exercises because this is about expanding your lung volume and it is about creating more space, and maybe that is related to posture because posture inhibits space in the lungs and stuff. So then we have that ratio and that can absolutely change the course of everything that you do for six months.

So that’s one very small and incredibly useful example of knowing how a system works and challenging two different sides of it to give you some incredibly valuable information. And that’s where I find my coaching’s gone because I think the medical profession would agree that diagnosis is the least effective part of treatment. How many people get treated for stuff and it didn’t work? They had to go back and back and back and that, and doctors do loads of tests, right? So singing teachers or singers themselves quite often only do one and make a choice based on that, which I find is like it can be hit and miss. So I think the more you can try and prove your own initial thought wrong, listen to a sing and make a judgment, don’t go on the judgment, prove it wrong.

And if you can’t prove it wrong after a couple of goes, without trying to like kind of sabotage it in the back of your mind, then you can actually be, well, my instincts are excellent, right? So well done, but you can go forward confidently. But having that guess become reality for you and it being a true guess after you tested it out, that also could make someone a bit too egotistical and then they’ll just guess from then on. They got three right, so they go, I don’t need to, I don’t need to prove myself wrong anymore. But you do every time you do because you will discover that there’s a few cracks in the theory that make a massive difference when you’ve gone six months into training. It’s a bit like a ship that’s on course, if it’s one degree at the star, you go a thousand miles and you’re way off. Right. So, if we can just make sure that course that we’re setting is just as defined as it can be and not a sloppy decision, then I find then everyone’s happier. The students, the teachers, the people who hire the singers, you know, everything. So that’s what I’m really passionate about that at the moment. 

John: That’s actually a great point. And I do have thoughts on singers maybe working on their own voice. They’re not studying with someone at the moment. How do they constantly test? What it is that they’re working on to know that they’re on the right path? Do you have some guidelines?

Chris: Yeah. You know and simplistically because I find, we all know how to move our body and moving body parts is actually a very simple thing to do and singers really relate to it, which is great. So one short run of things that I’ve done in workshops before is to start up the top or at the top of the head, work down the body a little bit, sing exactly the same thing in several different body movements and note the changes. You might have to do a couple of times because quite often we don’t get it or we just need to experience it. All we need, to record it and listen back, right? Crucial part of diagnosis. I find if you’re diagnosing yourself, is one of the main offenders for tension, the voice, even hoarseness, breathiness, pressed voice is the tongue. Nasality, whatever.

So first thing I’m like, okay, stick the tongue out, sing with the tongue out. Does it get better? Does it get worse? Cause even if it gets worse, it still tells you a lot about what’s going on. People are scared of getting worse, but if you remove your scaffolding, the thing that held you together, you’re obviously gonna fall apart. So sticking the tongue out and falling apart a bit is actually, Oh, maybe it is my tongue or, and then it gets better then, Oh, maybe it is my tongue, right? Or no change at all, very uncomfortable. I’m like, okay, all right. Maybe it’s not your tongue. Who knows? But tongue is a routine offender. The next one that we do is we waggle the jaw side to side as you sing the phrase.

John: The listeners should know there’s a visual here, and he was indeed waggling his jaw. 

Chris: So yeah, jaw left to right. And that also can generate a lot of change. And that can also change the tongue, can make the tongue relax and go along with the jaw. But also all of the muscles that connect to the jaw, the masseters and the ones underneath, the suprahyoinds, they can get waggled into looseness. So then we go down. That’s the jaw, then we go to turning the head left and right, which loosens the muscles that scaffold the larynx in the neck at times like the SCMs and all that, all the other ones outward, become flexible by turning the head. If someone holds their breath or presses their voice, that tends to really put them off. And so you can discover a lot about how you might hold things together at the neck when you turn your head and it gets better.

Next is shoulders right below that. So alternately rolling the shoulders brings the upper ribs into motion, and it can just create that sort of beginnings of postural balance in the body. And again, people start to feel really good. That refers up the neck as well. So there’s a kind of connection there. It might also help the neck. Then we rotate at the waist. So it’s like swaying. Then you sing with your arms in the air. That is a big one, by the way. So many people suddenly go, Oh my God, this is ridiculous. That would signify that the rib cage and the posture is a little slumped and there’s a much, there’s a lack of room.

Also, singers, this is very inspiratory position. So if someone’s very pushy, which is very much expiration, then this opposes it by creating an inspiratory position. So you balance it out and then you get much easier subglottal pressure. The last one that I do is, is bending at the waist, which is the opposite to putting your hands in the air. So if a singer sounds very low energy, then when you bend at the waist, basically like you’re about to do a deadlift that puts your belly into this very much like get airflow out situation and some voices improve in that way as well. So with that thing going down the body, if each singer would try that, when they have a breathy voice, they might be looking at registers but actually when they turn their head, it all cleans up. So actually the vocal fold closure is possibly being inhibited by external influences that are just not allowing vocal fold closure to be complete.

John: This to me is fascinating because you’ve found a very direct way to approach mind-body awareness, which is a key skill for singers, but that not everyone naturally has. Not everybody connects to sensations in the body the same. To me this makes sense as it forces the issue and it brings that direct awareness by just focusing on one part of the body. Now, how do people find out more about this? You had mentioned to me you have a workshop coming up?

Chris: Yeah. In London, this is primarily for vocal coaches, but I will be scheduling one for singers later on in the year. So the first one for vocal coaches on the 30th of June in London. But it’s getting oversubscribed, which is excellent. So I’m probably going to be in quick succession doing like an overflow one. And in that workshop I’m covering, you can see that workshop by the way, my Facebook page, which is It’s right there.

John: Great. And I’ll put a link in the show notes.

Chris: Lovely. Yeah, that’s great. Thanks man. That’s going to go through an entire set of diagnostic tools, not all of which you have to apply in the same lesson cause that’d be a bloody long lesson. But when you have inklings and you want to try and challenge your initial diagnosis, that’s what that workshop’s going to teach you. But I find with the vocal coach issue, what the workshops also aim to do is to try and get the guesswork out of diagnosis because that’s what you find when you work with teachers. It’s difficult to diagnose and it is very much a guess. That’s fair enough because actually what we end up doing after the diagnosis is it just gives us our very best guess based on the things we ruled out, right? So it’s not even a hundred percent. But our guesses are based on our biases and our biases are numerous, even for the people who feel impartial.

We’ll go twang, or breathing. Everyone’s breathing this week. What is it with this breathing? I went to a breathing course like last week. There’s a correlation between the course and you believing it’s everybody, right? But we go through these all the time and when we learn something new, we tend to see it everywhere. It becomes a bit of a hammer nail situation. 

John: It’s like when you buy a new car, suddenly you see that same model car everywhere. 

Chris: Yeah. And you’re like, the guy told me this was unique, which is annoying. And so, I find that the workshop, as much as it is going to give very clear direction to vocal coaches, it’s going to make them very much happier about making a choice. Because let’s face it, some very difficult breathing issues or tension issues take months to resolve. And I personally don’t feel comfortable embarking on three months of hard work for it to be fruitless at the end. The other thing I find is great is buy in from the clients. Now bias from my side, I tend to get a lot of people who have been down the road with it, with a lot of different people and have not resolved their problem. I get a lot of those people. Sometimes those people are looking for an answer that doesn’t exist. They bounce around hoping someone will say, Hey, just do this one thing and everything would be great and we’re all saying, no, it’s going to take a lot of work.

John: Right. They do want the magic bullet. They do bounce around.

Chris: Yeah. So with the questioning and history taking. We can weed those people out, right? But actually genuinely lots of people have been around the houses and are distraught with it. So in that sense, that’s also my motivation cause I get a lot of those people. I really want them to be able to understand their problem. For me to show them logically from palpation and exercise and lay out to them clearly that from the logic that even they can understand, that I believe it’s this issue and they trust you. Because they might not trust you because everyone else has done it on opinion and they’ve gone with the opinion and haven’t got anywhere and now it’s two years down the line and they’ve spent about two grand. Right. So, that’s another really helpful aspect of improving your diagnosis. And that’s what the workshops aimed to do.

John: That’s great. And then if people want to be kept up to date, because I know we’ve discussed you doing maybe some digital courses and things, and I don’t know if you’re comfortable talking about what you may have coming up, but I know you’ve got some things coming up that singers are going to love as well as voice teachers. Where’s the best place to kind of follow you on that?

Chris: Well, I think that the diagnosis situation, workshop situation will become a digital product eventually, which would be amazing. I’ll put you on the testing list of course.

John: If you create, cause I’m sure from this audience, if you want to create like a beta test audience for this as you develop it…

Chris: It’s recommended, yeah? 

John: Yeah. So, people need to follow you so they can hop on that.

Chris: Yeah. And they can do that. My website is There’s a signup form at the bottom of the homepage. I will be keeping everyone up to date across the year. There’ll also be that for singers. And I’m also very passionate about articulation, and I’ve done a few workshops on that that can translate to, something that works online as well. So that’s what’s going to be coming up this year.

John: All right. I want to thank you for being my guest, man. This is just a, this is great information. I mean, honestly, you’re one of my favorite voice teachers out there.

Chris: Thank you. Appreciate it. And yourself, man. We got fond memories and that long may they continue

John: Well, I think that went rather well, if I do say so myself. I will be releasing part two, again, this Friday if you’re listening as this podcast is being released. I release on a Tuesday and then I’m going to release part two on Friday and coming up after Chris very soon I’m going to have Dr. Reena Gupta, who is top level ear, nose and throat doctor in Los Angeles. More specifically, she’s a laryngologist who specializes in professional voice users, aka singers, performers, et cetera. And she has a quite a big celebrity clientele. But what’s really refreshing is she doesn’t get that ‘I work with celebrities’ attitude, which you often get in this business, especially in Los Angeles. She’s just a really giving, just a wonderful person. So that Reena will be coming up soon. I’m very excited about that interview. If you want to find out more about me, just go to You can sign up for my email list. You’ll be the first to find out about cool things that I’m doing, new products, even some freebie things I do here and there. And if you’re interested in lessons with me, you can also check out the information there. I would love to work with people who’ve listened to the podcast. And until next time, to better singing. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.